Curse

Dzjudz · Mar 20, 2011, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

About this image, everyone should really read through the thread if you going to use this as an example. It takes tactics, experience, lots of microing, and most importantly alot of skill to accomplish times like this. Not just anybody can replicate that time, I dare anyone to try it. My hat goes off to PoM for this accomplishment, job well done sir. But, he admits it takes alot of work. If 4 mesmers made DoA HM cake walk w/o cons for everyone, then we might have an issue. Thats simply not the case. Take away the obviously OP SF/ER combo and Cons, having the 3-4 mesmer becomes trivial in comparison.

The fact remains that a team with 3 (or even 4) mesmers is better than a team with 2 mesmers. In general PvE, mesmer > necro. Domination is just far stronger than Discord, no doubt about it. Merc supporters saying that all us non-Mercers want is a team with 7 Discords are way off, Discord is bad. Yes, a team with 3 necros, 2 mesmers and 2 rits is good. A team with 1 necro, 4 mesmers, 1 rit and 1 optional is better. How can you not see this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

having merc heroes would just be a FUN element (to play around with builds and so on) which people want to be provided FOR FREE by twisting this to an in-game advantage argument.

Again, nobody is arguing that they want free Mercs. We want free 7 hero teams of any combination of professions. Mercs should be cosmetic only, in that you can bring a character as a hero on another char. I'm perfectly fine with having to pay for such a cosmetic feature (although, again, I think the price is too high). This would make Merc heroes exactly as you describe it, a FUN element.

If you say 7 hero teams of any profession should be limited to people who pay for Mercs and they shouldn't introduce more generic heroes for people who don't pay for Mercs, how can you argue that it is not an in-game advantage? Why else would you have a problem with a solution like that? We are not twisting it into an in-game advantage argument, you are trying to twist it into a free Merc argument.

Karate Jesus · Mar 20, 2011, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

About this image, everyone should really read through the thread if you going to use this as an example. It takes tactics, experience, lots of microing, and most importantly alot of skill to accomplish times like this.

I thought that was rather obvious, otherwise I would have qualified it.

I just had a thought. Imagine if every SC'er started clearing with Mercenary Heroes. Even if it took them twice as long, it would still introduce far more elite drops into the market.

ensoriki · Mar 20, 2011, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Well, lemming already linked this.

We're not honestly going to call that a showing of objective truth for the claims of an advantage. Im sure there is an advantage but I wouldn't consider that showing one at all. For that to be an advantage you'd have to show that a solo team hero could not beat the area as fast or faster than a team with mercenary heroes.

Karate Jesus · Mar 20, 2011, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

For that to be an advantage you'd have to show that a solo team hero could not beat the area as fast or faster than a team with mercenary heroes.

I don't know of anyone who has. And you're really reaching to suggest that this isn't an advantage.

I don't think we can even question whether or not Mercenary Heroes are an advantage anymore. Now I think the question is whether or not it's justifiable or so trivial that it doesn't matter.

It's obviously an advantage, regardless of how small of an advantage you consider it to be.

melissa b · Mar 20, 2011, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Again, nobody is arguing that they want free Mercs. We want free 7 hero teams of any combination of professions. Mercs should be cosmetic only, in that you can bring a character as a hero on another char. I'm perfectly fine with having to pay for such a cosmetic feature (although, again, I think the price is too high). This would make Merc heroes exactly as you describe it, a FUN element.

If you say 7 hero teams of any profession should be limited to people who pay for Mercs and they shouldn't introduce more generic heroes for people who don't pay for Mercs, how can you argue that it is not an in-game advantage? Why else would you have a problem with a solution like that? We are not twisting it into an in-game advantage argument, you are trying to twist it into a free Merc argument.

I do agree mercenary = advantage. Should 7 heroes of any profession be free to eliminate this advantage? Not if it means I have to pay for winds of change, I have to pay monthly fees or Winds of change is cancelled. I'm willing to accept selling advantages in exchange for getting new content free. I payed for a 2nd account strictly for an advantage. Should 2nd accounts be free since they give an advantage?

I like the Anet model of being able to pick what advantages I can buy and getting free content whether I buy or not. I don't want to lose out on free content whether announced, not announced or not started yet or worse anet eliminates all microtransactions and makes it so all people pay monthly fees so every one is getting all content and no advantages exist. This does not mean I would tolerate all advantages Anet sells if they become very powerful and very expensive. Then I might question if Guild Wars is the right game for me. At this time however they haven't cross my personal border of whats acceptable.

Karate Jesus · Mar 20, 2011, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

I do agree mercenary = advantage. Should 7 heroes of any profession be free to eliminate this advantage? Not if it means I have to pay for winds of change, I have to pay monthly fees or Winds of change is cancelled.

What? No. People would have still bought Mercenary Heroes, especially if they were able to customize their appearance (which is what Mercenary Heroes should be, considering the price).

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

I payed for a 2nd account strictly for an advantage. Should 2nd accounts be free since they give an advantage?

No offense, but that is the stupidest argument I've seen in this thread so far. Most people I've been able to read and somewhat agree with, since I couldn't really care one way or the other, but that is just idiotic.

I don't even......

melissa b · Mar 20, 2011, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

What? No. People would have still bought Mercenary Heroes, especially if they were able to customize their appearance (which is what Mercenary Heroes should be, considering the price)

I partially agree. Some people would still buy while others would have not. But this is just one case. All the advantages that Anet has sold stack up to revenue which pays for free content and free server access.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

No offense, but that is the stupidest argument I've seen in this thread so far. Most people I've been able to read and somewhat agree with, since I couldn't really care one way or the other, but that is just idiotic.

I don't even......

Unfortunately, if you cant see buying a 2nd account is an advantage than call it idiotic. Most people its obvious that it does provide an advantage. Its an optional purchaseable advantage just like merc is. Any dispute of this is Idiotic!

ensoriki · Mar 20, 2011, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I don't know of anyone who has. And you're really reaching to suggest that this isn't an advantage.

I don't think we can even question whether or not Mercenary Heroes are an advantage anymore. Now I think the question is whether or not it's justifiable or so trivial that it doesn't matter.

It's obviously an advantage, regardless of how small of an advantage you consider it to be.

Im started to get frustrated with the amount of people who misunderstand me on Guru. Maybe I'm not communicating myself properly or something I don't know what it is.

I didn't say Mercs can't give you an advantage, I thought I made it pretty clear.If a normal hero team can match that speed or surpass it than based on comparison there is no advantage in DoA. Maybe Mercs allow you faster speeds than normal in DoA but thats a maybe.

If a normal team can accomplish the exact same speed of completition then where is the advantage over other players? There wouldn't be one. I'm not saying an advantage doesn't exist, I'm saying it would be a hasty judgement to say an advantage exists based on one completion time. I'm not reaching for anything, I didn't say an advantage didn't exist, I said that one screenshot is not objective truth.

Karate Jesus · Mar 20, 2011, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

Unfortunately, if you cant see buying a 2nd account is an advantage than call it idiotic. Most people its obvious that it does provide an advantage.

I want to just type /facepalm, but that seems rude. Also not responding seemed rude, so I'm just going to leave it at this.

Let's just assume that you're right. I have a feeling that regardless of what I would have typed you would have come to this conclusion anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Im started to get frustrated with the amount of people who misunderstand me on Guru. Maybe I'm not communicating myself properly or something I don't know what it is.

If I learned anything from my educational history, it's that miscommunication is always the fault of the person communicating. Nothing against you. I get your point now and it makes much more sense.

Saint Scarlet · Mar 21, 2011, 12:21 AM // 00:21

The easiest way out of this for Anet would be to create 5 Zaishen heros which could then be made into any prof. Then everyone is in the same boat.

This is not asking for free Merc heros as the whole point of them were for the cosmetic values. If you disagree then explain to me why else did people buy them other than to gain an advantage.

novawhiz · Mar 21, 2011, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If nobody can prove that the BEST possible heroes team build requires you to have merc heroes, then how can they say that having merc heroes grant an in-game advantage?

Can we PLEASE stop making this an argument about whether or not mercenaries provide an advantage or not. To me, this has less to do about some nub running around with a 7 necro hero setup thats better than mine, and more about the fact that i can't unlock all the capabilities of pve without paying $45. Why must i pay to be able to use 3 mesmers, or 5 monks, or 4 paragons.

If they created a new profession that cost $$ to unlock (which they have stated they are considering), would you be ok with it just because you can't prove its better than the other professions? And now, who becomes the godly judge of all things GW who decides what build/proff is better than the next.

NerfHerder · Mar 21, 2011, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

However, I have to repeat the point about game balance. If MH are considered advantageous and unacceptable, as they create a direct purchasable reward, is it not time to consider the root of the problem, that some professions are too powerful? What if mesmers, necromancers and ritualists weren't a cut above the rest? What if rangers, warriors and elementalists were revamped and offered compelling and attractive primary benefits? Arguably then much of the alarm here would diminish, as having a homogeneous party wouldn't be an advantage at all.

Indeed, it is well over due and part of the problem Merc Heroes are controversial. If Eles and Rangers were able to pump out more damage and have greater control effects, Interrupts, etc., it may reduce the homogeneity slightly. However, allowing anyone to aquire more Heroes through gameplay would be the faster and more fair solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

The fact remains that a team with 3 (or even 4) mesmers is better than a team with 2 mesmers. In general PvE, mesmer > necro. Domination is just far stronger than Discord, no doubt about it. Merc supporters saying that all us non-Mercers want is a team with 7 Discords are way off, Discord is bad. Yes, a team with 3 necros, 2 mesmers and 2 rits is good. A team with 1 necro, 4 mesmers, 1 rit and 1 optional is better. How can you not see this?

Oh I see it, I just see it as SF/ER, 4 Mesmers, 2 optionals, and Cons in the hands of a skilled player is better for that scenerio. I'm not convinced 4 Mesmer heroes, left to hero AI, is better for most stuations. I'm sure its viable, but best? Hard to say. I agree that MHs should be nothing more than cosmetic and that more Heroes should be added through gameplay. For the record, discord sucks and there is a tiny advantage to MHs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I don't think we can even question whether or not Mercenary Heroes are an advantage anymore. Now I think the question is whether or not it's justifiable or so trivial that it doesn't matter.

Justified. Why? This is a good reason.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

If a normal team can accomplish the exact same speed of completion then where is the advantage over other players?..... that one screenshot is not objective truth.

Also, most PvE content is so easy, it's hard to quantify easier. The advantages become so slim in most of the game its negligable.

Improvavel · Mar 21, 2011, 01:21 AM // 01:21

The problem here is that people have a distorted view of content or its importance.

What is important is the time you spend playing the game.

What if you play 1000 hours more of guild wars with your merc heroes and that makes your game more fun because it gives you more control over the way you play the game?

And mind you, you could have full parties of the same profession since day 1 of guild wars. If you didn't, that was your choice. If people preferred to play with h/h instead of playing with another person and have 6 heroes, that was their choice.

Mercenary heroes is again the player choice - you can have a cosmetic upgrade and full control over your party without relying on anyone else for a premium or you can refuse to pay that premium and achieve exactly the same if you play with another player.

People say that $45 is too much for 8 mercenary heroes (and mind you $20 allow you 5 mesmers or 5 rits or 6 necros).

Is it $0.045 per hour of entertainment that bad?

How many hours have people played Guild Wars already?

I'm close to 8000 hours and counting. Even if I frigging spent $500 on it, it still is $0.0525.

Yay a game costs $50! But if I only play it for 200 hours (and I can count on my fingers the games I've spent so much time on) it cost me $0.25 per hour! That is over 4 times the price spent on mercs if you play at least 1000 hours more of GW.

Xiaquin · Mar 21, 2011, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

This is not asking for free Merc heros as the whole point of them were for the cosmetic values. If you disagree then explain to me why else did people buy them other than to gain an advantage.

My guild mates bought them and don't use them to advantage, they use them cosmetically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by novawhiz

To me, this has less to do about some nub running around with a 7 necro hero setup thats better than mine, and more about the fact that i can't unlock all the capabilities of pve without paying $45.

What about storage panes and character slots? There are 10 professions in the game and not enough character slots to make one of each. Hey, it's not the best example, but there is such a thing as a luxury item. It's like I said, if the professions were more balanced this would be much less of an issue because there would be little point in trying to gain an advantage where none exists.

Quite frankly I'm prepared to support MH stay with no changes to hold skill balancing discussion alive, because this has finally pushed people to start complaining, now you see what I've been arguing for years.

gremlin · Mar 21, 2011, 02:07 AM // 02:07

I really think everyone should take a deep breath and calm down before the thread just gets closed down.
There may or may not be a real advantage to the merc pack dunno am not going to spend the money and try to find out.

It may well be that those with the mercs will spend many more hours trying out builds we cannot and failing because they are trying crazy combinations or lots of same class combos as yet no one knows for sure.
Still unlikely to beat 8 humans who are self flagging and probably have loads more experience in their characters than 1 player does.
Will probably be about equal to 2 friends each running 3 heroes.

Lets face it if the pack cost $2 we would all get it or if our income let us spend any amount on our computer games again we would get the pack.
Its expensive for what it is and it will probably be several months before it becomes clear if it is an overwhelming advantage.

I will worry about it if at all when and if that happens.

Dzjudz · Mar 21, 2011, 02:08 AM // 02:08

The whole "buying Mercs supports the Live Team so you get updates" argument doesn't really fly, because we are not arguing that Mercs shouldn't be for sale.

afya · Mar 21, 2011, 02:16 AM // 02:16

The time you play a game nor the money it costs affect the content's nature. A crap game is still a crap game no matter how much it is, even if you spend 99999 hours on it.

So is the case with MH. Even if it cost only 5 bucks, or less. It still carries an obvious advantage.

And who knows the next item for sell would give such a minor advantage? Everyone would be "forced" to buy it to keep up with the world.

Daesu · Mar 21, 2011, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by novawhiz

Can we PLEASE stop making this an argument about whether or not mercenaries provide an advantage or not. To me, this has less to do about some nub running around with a 7 necro hero setup thats better than mine, and more about the fact that i can't unlock all the capabilities of pve without paying $45. Why must i pay to be able to use 3 mesmers, or 5 monks, or 4 paragons.

Correct, and that is precisely the point I am making. But wait, look at the title of this thread: "Selling In-Game Advantages (The Great Debate over Mercenary Heroes)".

Then answer this, does having merc heroes gain you any advantage in this game? NO! Because so far the best hero builds do NOT require merc heroes, unless somebody can prove otherwise.

Is it a higher FUN factor to have merc heroes? Of course!

Buying a feature in this game that provides you with more FUN does not necessarily imply an in-game ADVANTAGE, in the way that this is worded.

So far, most people who are supporting MH are reasonably correct. It is not obvious at this point in time, that MH provides any in-game advantage more than providing an extra element of fun.

Saint Scarlet · Mar 21, 2011, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

My guild mates bought them and don't use them to advantage, they use them cosmetically.

You didn't read my post properly. Mercs were designed for cosmetic value only, other than that the only reason i can see people paying for it is to have the advantage others don't. If anyone can tell me another reason why people bought them i'm all ears....
If they bought them for cosmetic value then why are people upset if everyone else gets 5 zaishen heros, to make the playing field level for everyone.

Improvavel · Mar 21, 2011, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by afya

So is the case with MH. Even if it cost only 5 bucks, or less. It still carries an obvious advantage.

And who knows the next item for sell would give such a minor advantage? Everyone would be "forced" to buy it to keep up with the world.

There are advantages and there are "advantages".

A 50-50 axe would be an obvious advantage since the person buying it would do more damage than anyone else with an axe.

The merc heroes aren't an obvious advantage because you DON'T NEED/REQUIRE MERC HEROES TO HAVE 4 MESMERS IN A PARTY.

Like 7 heroes wasn't something that would break the game because you could already have 8 full customized skill bars/characters.

So no one is forced to buy merc heroes to keep up with the rest of the world because the rest of the world can replicate anything merc heroes are able to achieve.